[rodybmw]

Sorry for the long post but....


After almost 12000 miles on my 545i I can honestly say that I love the SMG. I would love to have faster shifting (especially downshifts), but even in it's present form I would buy an SMG again if I were buying another E60 now. HOWEVER,......having said that I do occasionally miss the "feeling" of using a clutch and selecting different gears.....you know, the hand and foot movements involved in driving a manual. So I think there is a way to give us the best of manual and SMG transmission in one car.

First of all, in it's current state the SMG clutch operation, as well as the actual gearshifts are done by valves and solenoids. They get their commands when to "push in" the clutch and when to "shift the gears" from the computer, which issues those commands after receiving a command from the driver (paddles or gearshift knob). Each position on the gearshift knob (R, N, D, +, -) has an electronic switch that when activated sends a signal to the computer which then commands the transmission to do what is needed. For example, if the car is stopped and then we push on the gas pedal the computer commands the clutch valve to release the clutch and the car moves....then when we tap the paddle or the gearshift knob the computer commands the clutch valve to dis-engage the clutch, the tranmission solenoids to change the gear, and then the clutch valve to re-engage the clutch. The point that I am trying to make is that everything is commanded and controlled by switches and the computer, so the idea that I am about to propose "should" not be hard to implement by BMW, or even to retrofit by one of the high end BMW tuners (Alpina, etc.). Here's what my idea would be, tell me what you think:

I think they could add a clutch pedal to the SMG cars that would NOT be mechanically (or hydraulically) attached to the clutch slave cylinder, but instead it would electronically be connected to the computer. Think of the "drive-by-wire" gas pedals......well this would be "clutch-by-wire". It would have a high resolution encoder so as to provide true variable control over the clutch. In addition to that the gear shift knob/gate would be replaced by another unit that would have all the gears 1 through 6, Neutral, and Reverse in the traditional positions that the BMW 6 speed manual has. The only difference would be that just like the clutch the gear shifter would NOT be physically connected to the gearbox but instead a "shift-by-wire" shift gate that is connected to the computer. It would have switches in all the gear positions (1-6, N, and R) instead of the few that the current SMG has.

So here's how it would work. A button next to the gear shift knob would select whether you want to drive it in "SMG manual mode", "SMG Auto mode", or "True manual mode with clutch". If you select "SMG manual mode" or "SMG Auto mode" then you would use it just like you do the current SMG. However, if you choose the "True manual mode with clutch" then the computer would look at the input from the electronic clutch pedal and electronic gear shift knob to do what is commanded. For example, when the cluth pedal is pressed the computer would get the signal from the electronic clutch pedal and command the clutch slave cylinder to disengage the clutch the exact amount that corresponds to how far you have pushed the clutch pedal. Then you would select the first gear with the shifter knob and the switch in position 1 of the gate would send a signal to the computer to put the gearbox in 1st gear. Then you would release the electronic clutch pedal which would tell the computer to release the clutch slave cylinder and engage the clutch. Essentially this simulates the control and the "feel" that you get in a manual gearbox car. However, you still have the SMG option available whenever you want to use that.......the perfect combination as far as I am concerned.

I think this is a relatively simple change which only involves the inputs to the computer, the outputs from the computer should remain the same as they are currently. It only involves a couple of electronic input devices (electronic variable output clutch pedal, electronic manual shift gate) and software changes to look at and interpret the inputs. After that point the output or the commands issued by the computer to the clutch valve or gear shifting solenoids should be the same as they are now on the SMG.

I don't want it to seem like I am oversimplifying this, but at the same time to me it seems like a relatively simple addition to the current SMG setup without having to change the actual hardware involved (gearbox, slave cylinder, etc.). It only involves input devices and software. I think even a competent BMW tuner could do this, let alone the factory.

THIS would be the perfect transmission for me . If I had this I think I would probalbly drive it in true manual mode just as much as in manual SMG mode and would not miss the "feel" of manual shifting.

What do you guys think?

[BetterMakeWay]

rodybmw, on Sep 10 2005, 02:50 AM, said:

Sorry for the long post but....


After almost 12000 miles on my 545i I can honestly say that I love the SMG.  I would love to have faster shifting (especially downshifts), but even in it's present form I would buy an SMG again if I were buying another E60 now. HOWEVER,......having said that I do occasionally miss the "feeling" of using a clutch and selecting different gears.....you know, the hand and foot movements involved in driving a manual.  So I think there is a way to give us the best of manual and SMG transmission in one car. 

First of all, in it's current state the SMG clutch operation, as well as the actual gearshifts are done by valves and solenoids.  They get their commands when to "push in" the clutch and when to "shift the gears" from the computer, which issues those commands after receiving a command from the driver (paddles or gearshift knob).  Each position on the gearshift knob (R, N, D, +, -) has an electronic switch that when activated sends a signal to the computer which then commands the transmission to do what is needed.  For example, if the car is stopped and then we push on the gas pedal the computer commands the clutch valve to release the clutch and the car moves....then when we tap the paddle or the gearshift knob the computer commands the clutch valve to dis-engage the clutch, the tranmission solenoids to change the gear, and then the clutch valve to re-engage the clutch.  The point that I am trying to make is that everything is commanded and controlled by switches and the computer, so the idea that I am about to propose "should" not be hard to implement by BMW, or even to retrofit by one of the high end BMW tuners (Alpina, etc.).  Here's what my idea would be, tell me what you think:

I think they could add a clutch pedal to the SMG cars that would NOT be mechanically (or hydraulically) attached to the clutch slave cylinder, but instead it would electronically be connected to the computer.  Think of the "drive-by-wire" gas pedals......well this would be "clutch-by-wire".  It would have a high resolution encoder so as to provide true variable control over the clutch.  In addition to that the gear shift knob/gate would be replaced by another unit that would have all the gears 1 through 6, Neutral, and Reverse in the traditional positions that the BMW 6 speed manual has.  The only difference would be that just like the clutch the gear shifter would NOT be physically connected to the gearbox but instead a "shift-by-wire" shift gate that is connected to the computer.  It would have switches in all the gear positions (1-6, N, and R) instead of the few that the current SMG has.

So here's how it would work.  A button next to the gear shift knob would select whether you want to drive it in "SMG manual mode", "SMG Auto mode", or "True manual mode with clutch".  If you select "SMG manual mode" or "SMG Auto mode" then you would use it just like you do the current SMG.  However, if you choose the "True manual mode with clutch" then the computer would look at the input from the electronic clutch pedal and electronic gear shift knob to do what is commanded.  For example, when the cluth pedal is pressed the computer would get the signal from the electronic clutch pedal and command the clutch slave cylinder to disengage the clutch the exact amount that corresponds to how far you have pushed the clutch pedal.  Then you would select the first gear with the shifter knob and the switch in position 1 of the gate would send a signal to the computer to put the gearbox in 1st gear.  Then you would release the electronic clutch pedal which would tell the computer to release the clutch slave cylinder and engage the clutch.  Essentially this simulates the control and the "feel" that you get in a manual gearbox car.  However, you still have the SMG option available whenever you want to use that.......the perfect combination as far as I am concerned.

I think this is a relatively simple change which only involves the inputs to the computer, the outputs from the computer should remain the same as they are currently.  It only involves a couple of electronic input devices (electronic variable output clutch pedal, electronic manual shift gate) and software changes to look at and interpret the inputs.  After that point the output or the commands issued by the computer to the clutch valve or gear shifting solenoids should be the same as they are now on the SMG.

I don't want it to seem like I am oversimplifying this, but at the same time to me it seems like a relatively simple addition to the current SMG setup without having to change the actual hardware involved (gearbox, slave cylinder, etc.).  It only involves input devices and software.  I think even a competent BMW tuner could do this, let alone the factory.

THIS would be the perfect transmission for me .  If I had this I think I would probalbly drive it in true manual mode just as much as in manual SMG mode and would not miss the "feel" of manual shifting.

What do you guys think?

I think it's too complicated and it wouldn't sell. I mean come on, after all if you want a manual GET a manual, if you want automatic GET an automatic or SMG if you want slightly more feel. It would be a waste to have both because the costs would be too high and the price for it would be of course high, and the chance of bugs way higher. I mean you will defenetley spend more time using one way of the tranmission over the other...i don't belive there is anyone that would spend almost 50/50 time using both trannys. SO in conclusion if you spend more time in automaitc mode it's clear you are an automatic man, if you spend more time in manual than it's clear you're a manual fan so...there is no point to spend alot more money for the few times you use the other. Not to talk about financial costs on testing and implementing and so on...

[pennetta]

"To each its own"; I want SMG for my motorcycles.

[rodybmw]

BetterMakeWay, on Sep 10 2005, 03:07 AM, said:

I think it's too complicated and it wouldn't sell. I mean come on, after all if you want a manual GET a manual, if you want automatic GET an automatic or SMG if you want slightly more feel. It would be a waste to have both because the costs would be too high and the price for it would be of course high, and the chance of bugs way higher. I mean you will defenetley spend more time using one way of the tranmission over the other...i don't belive there is anyone that would spend almost 50/50 time using both trannys. SO in conclusion if you spend more time in automaitc mode it's clear you are an automatic man, if you spend more time in manual than it's clear you're a manual fan so...there is no point to spend alot more money for the few times you use the other. Not to talk about financial costs on testing and implementing and so on...

I don't know how expensive it would be or how popular it would be, it's just something that I thought about and it is one of the items in my "wish list".

My daily commute involves part city and part freeway driving (on Los Angeles freeways). Depending on whether I am taking my son to school and whether I am going to work at my regular work shop, or different studios and locations aroung LA I end up driving anywhere between 80% freeway 20% city all the way to 30% freeway 70% city (on a given day). It is the bumper to bumper traffic on the freeways that made me get away from the manual transmission. I have driven manuals all my life but the last few years I had been getting more and more tired of it WHILE in freeway traffic, but still loved it in the city. When I was ready to purchase my 545i there was no way I was going to go with an automatic, and had there not been an SMG option I would have gone with the manual, but thankfully there was.

As I said if I had to do it again I would still get an SMG, however, if the transmission that I described above was available I would definatley get it and drive it in both the SMG manual mode and True manual mode with clutch. I don't know what percentage of the time I would use which, but more that likely almost all the city driving and non-traffic freeway driving would be in True manual and the rest in SMG manual, NEVER in SMG Auto.

[Znod]

rodybmw, on Sep 10 2005, 02:50 AM, said:

Sorry for the long post but....

What do you guys think?

For my 545i, the perfect transmission would be a steptronic which (1) would allow one to hold gears upon acceleration in sport mode until a rev limiter steps in, (2) would, in sport mode, downshift to first/go back to auto shifting when a complete stop is made whether or not manual shifting had been invoked, and (3) would allow one to adjust the automatic and manual shift speeds in sport mode. The transmission would be a sort-of SMG.

[rodybmw]

Hmmm.......I was curious to hear from the veteran members of the SMG gang. Do you guys ever miss the traditional clutch and shifting action of a manual? Would you go for a transmission like the one I described above if it were available?.....or do you think it's a waist of money and there is no reason for BMW to give us an SMG with the additional feature of a manual mode with a clutch pedal?



Rudy.........JDN........realtyman..........EBMCS03.......Kigerka ??????

[Rudy]

I understand your desire to have the best of both worlds but for me, I don't miss the clutch pedal much at all. Sure, having the pedal there but be optional wouldn't be a problem for me, I just don't think I'd ever want to use it.

For me, after driving manals all my life, I simply think that I've "moved on" and would feel like I was taking a step backwards by using the optional clutch pedal.

If I really want to drive a traditional manual, I'll pull out my M3 and give it a whirl...

[robg]

I think I side with Rudy on this one. If you are going to do all of the "work" of a traditional" manual, why not just have a traditional manual? Most people who miss the clutch pedal or who would not consider SMG site the skill, feel, and connectedness (if that is a word) of a traditional manual - executing the perfect heel / toe, etc. Your proposed system would simulate the traditional manual more closley, but still remove the skill level.

I like the absence of the clutch pedal. My only desire is to speed up/smooth out the shifts, but i suspect future generations of the SMG will do that.

[speedracerF4i]

rodybmw, on Sep 13 2005, 01:04 AM, said:

Hmmm.......I was curious to hear from the veteran members of the SMG gang. Do you guys  ever miss the traditional clutch and shifting action of a manual?  Would you go for a transmission like the one I described above if it were available?.....or do you think it's a waist of money and there is no reason for BMW to give us an SMG with the additional feature of a manual mode with a clutch pedal?



Rudy.........JDN........realtyman..........EBMCS03.......Kigerka ??????

One thing I miss about the self-shift cars is that you always tend to know what gear you're in. Your hand will read the position of the shift knob and tell you what gear you're in. In SMG, you're endowed with only a tiny little gear indicator located far from your normal field of vision. I still have to glance down to know what gear I am, and still trying to shift to that imaginary 7th gear all the time.

To me, I'd like the SMG to have a shifting pattern with gates. Not just up and down shifts. It would be perfect

[drjochen]

I don't miss the clutch at all.
I wish I have a button for neutral, though. For example, when I roll towards a red light, it would be nice to just press a button for neutral rather than moving the shift lever over.

[realtyman]

The only time I miss the clutch pedal is at start/launch/etc. Accelleration Assist is not controllable enough and is often "too much".
A regular start is very smooth but sometimes is "not enough".
Aside from that I really don't miss the clutch pedal.
I don't have an issue flicking the shift knob into N when I need it.
(My $0.02)

[undien717]

rodybmw, on Sep 9 2005, 11:50 PM, said:

Sorry for the long post but....


After almost 12000 miles on my 545i I can honestly say that I love the SMG.  I would love to have faster shifting (especially downshifts), but even in it's present form I would buy an SMG again if I were buying another E60 now. HOWEVER,......having said that I do occasionally miss the "feeling" of using a clutch and selecting different gears.....you know, the hand and foot movements involved in driving a manual.  So I think there is a way to give us the best of manual and SMG transmission in one car. 

First of all, in it's current state the SMG clutch operation, as well as the actual gearshifts are done by valves and solenoids.  They get their commands when to "push in" the clutch and when to "shift the gears" from the computer, which issues those commands after receiving a command from the driver (paddles or gearshift knob).  Each position on the gearshift knob (R, N, D, +, -) has an electronic switch that when activated sends a signal to the computer which then commands the transmission to do what is needed.  For example, if the car is stopped and then we push on the gas pedal the computer commands the clutch valve to release the clutch and the car moves....then when we tap the paddle or the gearshift knob the computer commands the clutch valve to dis-engage the clutch, the tranmission solenoids to change the gear, and then the clutch valve to re-engage the clutch.  The point that I am trying to make is that everything is commanded and controlled by switches and the computer, so the idea that I am about to propose "should" not be hard to implement by BMW, or even to retrofit by one of the high end BMW tuners (Alpina, etc.).  Here's what my idea would be, tell me what you think:

I think they could add a clutch pedal to the SMG cars that would NOT be mechanically (or hydraulically) attached to the clutch slave cylinder, but instead it would electronically be connected to the computer.  Think of the "drive-by-wire" gas pedals......well this would be "clutch-by-wire".  It would have a high resolution encoder so as to provide true variable control over the clutch.  In addition to that the gear shift knob/gate would be replaced by another unit that would have all the gears 1 through 6, Neutral, and Reverse in the traditional positions that the BMW 6 speed manual has.  The only difference would be that just like the clutch the gear shifter would NOT be physically connected to the gearbox but instead a "shift-by-wire" shift gate that is connected to the computer.  It would have switches in all the gear positions (1-6, N, and R) instead of the few that the current SMG has.

So here's how it would work.  A button next to the gear shift knob would select whether you want to drive it in "SMG manual mode", "SMG Auto mode", or "True manual mode with clutch".  If you select "SMG manual mode" or "SMG Auto mode" then you would use it just like you do the current SMG.  However, if you choose the "True manual mode with clutch" then the computer would look at the input from the electronic clutch pedal and electronic gear shift knob to do what is commanded.  For example, when the cluth pedal is pressed the computer would get the signal from the electronic clutch pedal and command the clutch slave cylinder to disengage the clutch the exact amount that corresponds to how far you have pushed the clutch pedal.  Then you would select the first gear with the shifter knob and the switch in position 1 of the gate would send a signal to the computer to put the gearbox in 1st gear.  Then you would release the electronic clutch pedal which would tell the computer to release the clutch slave cylinder and engage the clutch.  Essentially this simulates the control and the "feel" that you get in a manual gearbox car.  However, you still have the SMG option available whenever you want to use that.......the perfect combination as far as I am concerned.

I think this is a relatively simple change which only involves the inputs to the computer, the outputs from the computer should remain the same as they are currently.  It only involves a couple of electronic input devices (electronic variable output clutch pedal, electronic manual shift gate) and software changes to look at and interpret the inputs.  After that point the output or the commands issued by the computer to the clutch valve or gear shifting solenoids should be the same as they are now on the SMG.

I don't want it to seem like I am oversimplifying this, but at the same time to me it seems like a relatively simple addition to the current SMG setup without having to change the actual hardware involved (gearbox, slave cylinder, etc.).  It only involves input devices and software.  I think even a competent BMW tuner could do this, let alone the factory.

THIS would be the perfect transmission for me .  If I had this I think I would probalbly drive it in true manual mode just as much as in manual SMG mode and would not miss the "feel" of manual shifting.

What do you guys think?

The only problem I have with that setup is that in your "True Manual Mode" it would be hard to anticipate how long to hold the clutch pedal down during fast shifting. Unlike a conventional gearshift lever, where you know when you've linked into the next gear, our 545i's already have a set speed for sport mode shifting. If you're shifting quickly in the theoretical "True Manual Mode," you might think that the hydraulic clutches are engaging the next gear faster than it really is and let go of the clutch too early, therefore grinding the dog teeth on the collar. Throttle blipping might be a problem as well because you might blip faster than the speed the system is shifting, therefore grinding the dog teeth on the collar.

[EBMCS03]

WOW!!! what a read... Did I just read a book?

I thought about that theory... but just not that much in depth. Idea is neat I think I would like it. BUT it better have a really GOOD clucth feel. I dont like clutches that doesnt have any feel, a la Honda Civic.... if they can make it feel like a MINI Cooper S clutch or a ///M clutch then I might be interested...

I'm not sure how I would like the shifting feel though... as you dont have the H pattern anymore and just going up and down on the SMG lever or steering wheel paddles and operating a clutch would make it kind of odd.

Plus the other thing is I like the feeling of being able to feel the gear being selected if I cant feel it I think I would always look at the dash to wait for the number change than release the clutch, by then the RPMs would have dropped too much I think.

I dunno, hard to say if I'll want it or not.

[swajames]

donv, on Sep 13 2005, 12:02 AM, said:

rodybmw, on Sep 10 2005, 02:50 AM, said:

Sorry for the long post but....

What do you guys think?

For my 545i, the perfect transmission would be a steptronic which (1) would allow one to hold gears upon acceleration in sport mode until a rev limiter steps in, (2) would, in sport mode, downshift to first/go back to auto shifting when a complete stop is made whether or not manual shifting had been invoked, and (3) would allow one to adjust the automatic and manual shift speeds in sport mode. The transmission would be a sort-of SMG.

Agreed, really can't imagine it would take much more than just a software change to implement this right now with the current steptronic.

[rodybmw]

EBMCS03, on Sep 13 2005, 09:38 PM, said:

WOW!!! what a read... Did I just read a book? 

I thought about that theory... but just not that much in depth. Idea is neat I think I would like it. BUT it better have a really GOOD clucth feel. I dont like clutches that doesnt have any feel, a la Honda Civic.... if they can make it feel like a MINI Cooper S clutch or a ///M clutch then I might be interested...

I'm not sure how I would like the shifting feel though... as you dont have the H pattern anymore and just going up and down on the SMG lever or steering wheel paddles and operating a clutch would make it kind of odd.

Plus the other thing is I like the feeling of being able to feel the gear being selected if I cant feel it I think I would always look at the dash to wait for the number change than release the clutch, by then the RPMs would have dropped too much I think.

I dunno, hard to say if I'll want it or not. 

Actually my proposed system WOULD have the H pattern.....maybe I did not explain it clearly in my original post. It would simulate the EXACT gate and shift pattern as the 6 speed manual's on the E60. Instead of having the momentary push fwd or pull back with a return to center it would actually have 8 distinct positions (1-6, R, N) with a switch in each of those positions to tell the computer which gear is being selected. Once the shifter is moved to a given gear position it would stay there until you take it out......exactly like the Reverse gear position on our current SMG, and exactly like a manual transmission. If you ask me shifting into reverse on the current SMG has a great feel to it, and you know exactly where you have shifted by feel alone. So basically just imagine having the exact shifter/gate pattern as the 6 speed manual and going through the exact same motions as you would on the manual (NOT just the push up/Pull down on the current SMG)

As far as the clutch "feel" I think they can achieve whatever feel they want by using a combination of springs and air/oil shocks.